Forum Index » Community » Latest Updates » Dev CoC Draft - Progression Type GuidelinesDev CoC Draft - Progression Type GuidelinesSubscribe DevCompliance Developer Joined Mar 7, 2022 OP September 4 2023, 8:22pm, last edited September 4 2023, 8:38pm With the new progression guidelines being discussed, a number of you are probably very excited about this feature! (so are we!) There are a few things to keep in mind going forward in regards to the Developer's Code of Conduct. The wording isn't finalized, but the basic idea of what will be added is as follows: - It is mandatory for a developer to add progression types to their sets. - An active developer must first be contacted in order to change the set progression type as per standard revision rules. - Disputes for progression type will go through a revision vote. - A forum post is required when adding or changing progression types to an inactive developer's set. - Any developer who changes the 'Type' of an achievement becomes responsible for the typing of that achievement and is treated as the author for purposes of type revision. That said, if you are unsure how to mark a set or would like assistance handling your sets, please reach out to your fellow developers or DevCompliance for assistance! The following post will list general guidelines and examples of how to mark sets. DevCompliance Developer Joined Mar 7, 2022 OP September 4 2023, 8:24pm, last edited September 4 2023, 8:51pm Progression Conditions: - Achievements that mark steady progress through a set. Post-game content is usually not progression. - Cannot be missed assuming no glitches/exploits have been used. Non-progression - Optional content - Higher Difficulties - Sidequests - Collectibles - Challenges - Easter Eggs - Story that can be missed, including ending variations. Win Conditions - Achievement(s) that mark the end of the game. Bad endings are usually not true endings. - Some games may have multiple Win Conditions, in which case earning any of these achievements (plus all progression) marks the game as beaten. - Others may only have one, which should still be marked as a Win Condition for user readability. - In some cases, there is no single Win Condition, such as a puzzle game when progression can be done in any order. In these cases, earning all Progression achievements will mark the game as beaten. Types of Progression Standard Linear progression as you play through level-to-level. Example: -- Prince of Persia - Each level is played sequentially to complete the game. Grouped Levels are grouped together rather than having individual achievements. Example: -- Lemmings - Achievements are awarded every 5 levels. Bosses Boss fights as story milestones. Example: -- Spyro: Year of the Dragon - Buzz, Spike and Scorch are mandatory boss fights to be able to progress and defeat the Sorceress. Key Items/Events Collecting important items, reaching the next location or witness key story events. Example: -- Final Fantasy - Significant events such as Sleeping Prince and Flotation act as story milestones between the game's other boss progression. Non-Standard Progression Compilation - All games within these have equal importance, so all need to be completed to mark the compilation as beaten. - Mark Progression for all individual games as usual. - Win Conditions must instead be marked as Progression. Example: -- Final Fantasy Origins - Both Scions and Sinners and True Emperor of Hell are marked as Progression. Intended Skips - Some games include features that allow levels to be skipped without the use of bugs or exploits. In these cases, skippable levels must not be marked as progression as the game can be beaten without them. Example: -- Super Mario Bros. - Because it is possible to warp to different levels, it is not possible to mark any as Progression. Saved The Girl is marked as the Win condition. Limited Scope/Little Substance - Some games are so simplistic, or have so little content, that the difference between Progression and Mastery is minor. If Progression is clear, mark as usual. Otherwise, mark every achievement as a Progression Condition. Example: -- Dice of Fate - This is a dice simulator. Multiple Game Modes - All non-endless and non-restrictive modes that are available when first launching the game have Progression Conditions marked. - These game modes have equal importance, much like the individual games in a compilation. Any Win Conditions should instead be marked as Progression. - Endless modes, by definition, continue until failure, so lack Progression and are not included. - Restrictive modes limit the player in some way, most often with time or turn limits. They may appear to contain Progression, but the limitations act as an additional challenge, making these achievements Non-Progression that should not be marked. Example: -- Kirby Super Star - Bye Bye Birdy, What A Meta-Knightmare, Like A Gentle Breeze, Back On Solid Ground and Balance Restored...? are marked as Progression. Subsets - These are inherently focused on a challenge, restriction or other non-standard ways of playing a game. - Do not mark any Progression or Win conditions; this is already covered within the core set. Multiple Possible Win Conditions Multiple Endings - Endings that occur at the end of the game through normal play should be marked as Win Conditions. - Alternative endings that require optional content such as collectibles are Non-Progression and should not be marked. - Alternative endings that end the storyline early are also Non-Progression and should not be marked. Examples: -- Knuckles Chaotix - Both Bad Ending and Good Ending are marked as Win conditions. The ending is determined by optional collectibles. -- Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee - Both Bad Ending and Good Ending are marked as Win conditions. The ending is determined by saving NPCs. -- Sigma Star Saga - One is the Loneliest Number and Show Me This Planet are marked as Win conditions. The ending is determined by a gameplay action that only changes the final cutscene. -- Cave Story MD - Coward is not marked as either Progression or Win because it ends the game early and does not resolve the story. Shtuff Happens and Curse Broken are both marked as Win conditions. -- Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow - The Dark Lord Returns is not marked as either Progression or Win because it ends the game early and does not resolve the story. No Dark Lord Here is marked as the Win condition. -- Shadowgate - Uh... What? is not marked as either Progression or Win because it causes the player's death. Talimar the Black is marked as the Win condition. -- Sonic Adventure 2 - Final Story -- Zero Escape: Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors - Plaudite! Acta Est Fabula! -- Live-A-Live - Live A Live requires optional character recruitment. Only Demon King No More is marked as a Win condition. -- Powerslave | Exhumed - King of the World requires optional collectibles. Only Time to Rest is marked as a Win condition. -- Sonic 3 & Knuckles - Hyper Sonic Victory, Hyper Knuckles Victory and Super Tails Victory all require optional collectibles. Sonic Victory, Knuckles Victory and Tails Victory are all marked as Win conditions. Multiple difficulties - Progression and Win Conditions should be marked for the lowest difficulty supported by the set. - If difficulty achievements do not stack (e.g. normal or higher), for each difficulty available from a fresh save, mark each game completion achievement as a Win Condition. - Endings that are only available on lower difficulties are not considered Progression. Examples: -- Devil May Cry 3 - Leave Me And Go and Normal Mode are marked as Win conditions as Easy and Normal are available on a 1st playthrough. -- Resident Evil 3: Nemesis - Carlos, My Love! and Is That You?! are Win conditions, Easy is not covered by the set. -- Streets of Rage 3 - The End? is not marked as Progression or Win because Easy difficulty ends the game early. Unfinished Business, Time's Up and The End! are all Win conditions. Multiple Storylines/Characters - Some linear games have an epilogue or expanded story that are still part of a standard playthrough. These resolve the storyline and should be marked as a Win Condition. - Some games may have endless post-game content after the story has resolved. This optional content should not be marked as either Progression or Win Conditions. - Additional story content that is exclusive to a particular version or release are part of Progression. These differentiate that game from other releases and should be marked as Win Conditions. Endings reached before this point should be marked as Progression. - Credits do not always mean the end of a story. - Some games have progression differences based on initial character choice. In these cases, all starting characters' endings are needed to beat the game, so these should all be marked as Progression Conditions. - If the character choice only affects playstyle or abilities, each character's ending should be marked as Win Conditions. - Characters may each have multiple endings. In these cases, make sure to only mark their normal ending, not ones that require extra steps. Examples: -- EarthBound - Smiles and Tears is marked as the Win condition, On a Mission from God is marked as a Progression condition. -- Resident Evil 2 - No Time to Waste and I Have to Find You are marked as Win conditions. Progression cannot be marked due to the order of characters chosen not being significant to the overall story. -- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 FES - The Fate of the Sealed is marked as the Win condition, Thank You for Everything is marked as a Progression condition. -- Final Fantasy I & II: Dawn of Souls - Break The Time Loop, To Heck With You! and To Arubboth With You! are marked as Progression. This version of the game expands the storyline to resolve the plot. -- Final Fantasy V: Advance - The True Power of the Void is not marked as Progression or Win due to being post-game content in an endless game. The Win condition is Warriors of Light. -- Pokemon Gold Version - Battle On the Mountain is not marked as Progression or Win due to being post-game content in an endless game. The Win condition is Elite Five. Notable Genres These genres often lack standard progression, so have additional guidelines here. They may also feature multiple game modes; see the guidelines above for how to mark Progression for these. Arcade Use the first of the following that is applicable: - Mark achievements for clearing each stage as Progression and the last as a Win Condition. Example: -- Galaga - Bulletstorm is marked as the Win condition. - Use the last stage that adds new elements (enemies/obstacles/mechanics) or increases the difficulty as the final stage of Progression. Example: -- Donkey Kong - Mark 150m Finish as the Win condition. - Use the set developer's score achievements as Progression, with reaching the highest as the Win Condition. Example: -- Pokemon Pinball: Ruby & Sapphire - 1st Place Ruby, 1st Place Sapphire and High Roller are marked as Progression. - Use the in-game leaderboards' high scores as Progression. Fighting - The game should be cleared with all starting characters for a Beat - The progression and/or win achievements for each character available on a fresh launch should be marked as Progression, with no Win Conditions. Example: -- Soulcalibur II - Weapon Master (Story) and each default character's Arcade (Normal or Higher) are marked as Progression. Time Attack (Restrictive), Survival (Endless) and the unlockable modes are not marked. Puzzle - Some Puzzle games allow levels to be played in any order. In these cases, do not mark any Win Conditions, only Progression. - Puzzle games may segment levels by difficulty. These function as categories rather than the same levels again but more challenging, so higher difficulties are still part of Progression in these cases. Rhythm - All songs unlocked through standard gameplay are considered Progression. - Do not include songs unlocked with additional steps such as high score or chain requirements. SHMUPs - If character/ship choice does not affect the storyline, only one needs to be cleared to Beat the game. - Mark each character's win achievement as a Win Condition. - Do not mark character-specific achievements as Progression. Sports - Win a game is only considered Progression if there are no other game modes. - Progression should be marked for all non-endless modes available from a fresh launch. - All tournaments/events unlocked through standard gameplay are considered Progression. - Do not include tournaments/events unlocked through additional steps such as perfect games. Alexdatadestroyer Developer Joined Jun 15, 2019 September 4 2023, 11:46pm, last edited September 5 2023, 12:03am Since this is a "Draft" as Topic Title says, I think it's worth a feedback here. - It is mandatory for a developer to add progression types to their sets. @DevCompliance So, my concern became a reality... I am not surprised after seeing a lot of thing going on on Github lately. I just expect this to be well documented on RADocs as I said on Github weeks ago. For now, I couldn't find any article related to it yet (found this one, but I don't think that this applies to this Feature correctly) there and this needs to be done soon: The Carousel moves on RA Main Page, this topic will be gone there pretty soon (unless if this gets fixed somewhere). This will be good to avoid any unnecessary feuds (heated discussions) and "scold letters" regarding Achievement Type misuse due to misinterpretation of this Feature or so. Furthermore, this entire text explaining everything needs a better formatting: Some things can be missed while reading at it and, since it's a mandatory thing now, missing anything here can be fatal. One example, Subsets - These are inherently focused on a challenge, restriction or other non-standard ways of playing a game. - Do not mark any Progression or Win conditions; this is already covered within the core set. @DevCompliance This part is buried within the other texts and can easily be missed. It's better to say all in CAPS or Bolded explaining that it's only available for Main Sets (or Core Sets, if you prefer). Since a lot of ordinary players are expected to play more Main Sets instead of Subsets, I really think if this alert is truly necessary since it's on everyone knowledge that Subset will, always, focus on a Main Challenge - which is NOT a Progression and neither a Win Condition originally. TheMysticalOne Developer Joined Nov 18, 2019 September 5 2023, 12:08am, last edited September 5 2023, 12:27am We'll make sure it gets into the proper spots in the docs. This is just the preliminary notice so people can get started now. Fatal is a weird accusation. We aren't gonna demote people over errors or missing the requirement sometimes. We'll remind people and point out corrections and move on because they're reasonable people who will then correct things. Unless someone is consistently not doing it or outright refusing things will be cool. This isn't a one strike and you're out sort of thing. Kinglink Junior Developer Joined Jan 3, 2017 September 5 2023, 4:32am, last edited September 5 2023, 4:33am Wait this is ACTUALLY happening? I've heard rumors so seeing this step is exciting as heck. This is glorious news. I'm not a Dev currently, but I know there's a ton of orphaned games with, is there a desire for devs (potentially Jr. Devs) to go back and help mark the old "unowned" games with these flags televandalist Moderator Joined Oct 20, 2015 September 5 2023, 5:07am is there a desire for devs (potentially Jr. Devs) to go back and help mark the old "unowned" games with these flags We've already marked over a thousand "unowned" sets and are continuing to do so. Kinglink Junior Developer Joined Jan 3, 2017 September 5 2023, 5:55am Thanks Televandalist, this is great news, keep up the great work guys. affftedio Developer Joined Sep 2, 2018 September 6 2023, 8:53pm A question, does the users get something for completing the game by this progression system? Protoblubb Joined Nov 26, 2015 September 9 2023, 5:20pm, last edited September 9 2023, 5:24pm EDIT: Sorry, confused it with the "measured" system. Nevermind. Old post below. ----- Hi! No offense, but I think some missable achievements also should be eligible for progression, as long as it is clear that they are missable. Example: "Open all treasure chests in [one-time dungeon]" Such achievements IMO should also have a progression metric, so people know how many chests there are and how many they still need. TheMysticalOne Developer Joined Nov 18, 2019 September 9 2023, 6:50pm Progression tags are only for things that must have been earned by the time you beat the game. WovenTales Joined Nov 4, 2017 September 9 2023, 8:19pm Subsets - These are inherently focused on a challenge, restriction or other non-standard ways of playing a game. - Do not mark any Progression or Win conditions; this is already covered within the core set. Can this maybe be softened a bit? I definitely agree that in most cases a subset for something like "all endings" or "beat all developer times" or "Professor Oak challenge" is covered by the core set. However, the "non-standard ways of playing" can still result in a different enough game that it seems like a progression/win condition is still viable. Something like Knuckles the Echidna in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive) SubsetHold Right To Lose is borderline since it's basically just physics abuse, but on the other hand you're still progressing through each level of the game in turn. Something like Pokemon Emerald Version (Game Boy Advance) SubsetMudkip vs. The World (ft. Castform) is a ultimately restriction, yes, but essentially turns your mons-game format into a more standard RPG. It might not expose any different plot than the core set, but it still seems to me like different enough gameplay (and legitimate gameplay at that) to warrant a "beaten" mark. Subsets being marked for progression/win should certainly be discouraged, yes, but I'm not sure a blanket forbidding is warranted. Then again, Mudkip seems to an exception and is maybe just the exception that proves the rule is justified. I do, however, fall on the side that we should be working to make subsets more legitimate (as in the sushi pizza being a perfectly good subset) and this rule feels like something which pushes them further into the dark corners instead, so I admit to being a bit biased in this. affftedio Developer Joined Sep 2, 2018 September 10 2023, 1:57am, last edited September 10 2023, 2:00am I agree it could be a thing in some subsets, if the purpose is simply to say you beat the game then i see no harm in subsets like the pokemon in the example having progression since it will progress the same way as the regular games i believe, so progression in each gym and win condition with the E4 i suppose, i think this sonic would fall on the other side since it's just individual stages instead of the whole game so it can be done in any order. Maybe some subsets are not valid but if they have the same progression of achievements as the core set then i feel it's ok. Things like this Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow (Game Boy Advance) SubsetBonus is what i think fall on the other side where there's no way to have progression so it should be left as is, so maybe expanding the possibility for subsets to have progression only if there's indeed an actual progression in the achievements but not an obligatory thing. Digifiend Joined May 21, 2021 September 10 2023, 5:17pm Yeah, completion in a Professor Oak's Challenge could be getting all of the possible Pokemon before battling the Elite Four and Champion. Anything only obtainable post game wouldn't be needed (but would be required for Mastery, which in those sets usually means getting everything you can obtain without trading), and trades don't count. gschleser Joined Nov 10, 2021 September 19 2023, 8:45am Im curious to know when we can expect these progression marked achievements to start appearing on the site? Digifiend Joined May 21, 2021 10 seconds ago They're already appearing, they just don't seem to be labelled. For example, Wario Land II, the bosses are progression, including the first five endings, and the Really Final Chapter is marked as Win Condition. Just One More Time (10) All I can see is a note in the comments saying it's been marked as such. Which brings up a question about that regarding a few other games. Shouldn't To Arubboth With You! (25) be marked as Win Condition, not Progression, since it's the final boss of Final Fantasy II: Soul of Rebirth (a bonus chapter unlocked by finishing the main FF2 game)? Break The Time Loop (25) is the final boss of FF1, and should also be Win Condition. If you have both of those achievements, you've only got bonus content left to do (additional dungeons in FF1) and have completed the game. And what's the difference between Unfinished written in white, like I have on FF1&2 Dawn of Souls and Pokemon White 2, and Unfinished written in grey, like I have on Wario Land II and Conker's Pocket Tales? You must log in before you can join this conversation.