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Posted: 16 Sep, 2020 15:42
Aside fr0m all the other issues the Site and Community has, when looking into the core element of the Site (unlocking Achievements), i just want to ask you one question: What is the purpose of unlocking Achievement on RetroAchievements? Let me explain what i mean by that.

This is something that bothers me for a while now is the unfair changes to Achievement requirements after multiple people have unlocked it. Most recent example being , this Achievement has been moved to Unofficial despite of many users have already earned it. This behavior (aside from changing Code Requirements) is some of the worst that could happen to a Achievement Site and it wasn't the first nor will be the last time decisions like this will happen. Altomar recently complained about similar issue (see Chrono Cross topic).

So due to the nature of Revision Updates, its possible that any Achievement (easy or hard) can be excluded fr0m Core and stealing peoples points and time.

So here the question, why should i or anyone else attempt to go for Achievements and take this Site any seriously when we already know fr0m the start that the time we spend on the games can be rendered completely obsolete?

Posted: 16 Sep, 2020 16:46
We all know that no set is perfect or even can be considered complete. Revisions and rescores happens. FAQ mentions it in several places, both for users and developers. And I agree with improving sets by adding more achievements, lowering requirements for "reach level 99 in JRPG", rescoring to match skill/time needed etc. or fixes/removal of unwelcome designs.

If you read here, very hard achievements should be 12% of set. Given examples are similar to . Achievement conforms to all rules and guidelines in FAQ. I don't see how it could deserve to be demoted.

What I fear is that voting for revisions will mostly go in favor of vocal majority asking to demote hardest achievements, so that they can have "badge".

I don't have statistics how often hard achievements not deserving demotion get demoted, but if it's a growing trend, then this site will turn into "retrolog.org". That would be a sad day for me.

Posted: 16 Sep, 2020 16:54
So here the question, why should i or anyone else attempt to go for Achievements and take this Site any seriously when we already know fr0m the start that the time we spend on the games can be rendered completely obsolete?
A good question, indeed. If I played the game before, harder achievements are usually a motivation to remember the game and maybe master it here on RA. And I can say that there were at least two sets which I was ready to try but postponed them for a long time exactly because of demoted achievements. I knew those games quite well and I didn't have reason to replay them anymore. Now, considering even bigger possibility of demotion of "hard" cheevos than before (even those earned by many people are not safe, it seems), I am more and more inclined to just return to my youtube channel and forget the site altogether. Simply because the site slowly loses its appeal.

Posted: 16 Sep, 2020 17:11
But now when we have Manifesto situations like this should not be common anymore. At least I think so...

Posted: 16 Sep, 2020 17:17
I wanna put my 2 cents in here and say like beating a game without dying or getting hit should depend on the game and like time sink involved. Like beating the game deathless for Megaman X can be done sure its hard but its not like beating the game damageless. There are far harder cheevos on this site and I dont think it deserved to be demoted. People are always gonna complain you just have to tune those people out.

Posted: 16 Sep, 2020 17:47
Last Edit: 16 Sep, 2020 17:48
> why should i or anyone else attempt to go for Achievements and take this Site any seriously when we already know fr0m the start that the time we spend on the games can be rendered completely obsolete?

For the same reason you buy games at full price knowing that they will eventually be 80% off or free
And the same reason you filled your pokedex on your GB knowing that your save would get corrupted at some point
And the same reason we do meaningless things that we will lose interest in the future

Because you had fun doing it.

...now if you do something you hate just because "completition", "free points" or to say "Mastered!!1" then that's a different issue =/

Posted: 16 Sep, 2020 18:19
...now if you do something you hate just because "completition", "free points" or to say "Mastered!!1" then that's a different issue =/

👆👆👆
This need to be in the site header 🙏.

Posted: 16 Sep, 2020 19:01
Last Edit: 16 Sep, 2020 22:37
Because you had fun doing it.
...now if you do something you hate just because "completition", "free points" or to say "Mastered!!1" then that's a different issue =/

Yeah, I, for one, had fun. And I will continue having fun earning achievements here as long as RA has something worthy of attention in that regard. However, I also had fun playing games long before RA existed, both casually and for challenge. RA does have appeal and novelty exactly in "competition" and saying "Mastered" but if recent developments with demotion of achievements eventually progress further and for worse - it will stop being that interesting for me.

Posted: 16 Sep, 2020 20:54
completely agree with lordpsycho

Posted: 16 Sep, 2020 21:20
Last Edit: 16 Sep, 2020 21:22
I don't know the story about demoting that achievement but one of the first things I'll do when revision channel will be opened again is a vote to clone of with all earners transferred and placing its back to core.


if recent developments with demotion of achievements eventually progress further and for worse - it will stop being that interesting for me

While I'm still here I'll try to make hard achievements where they are -- in the core and not turn retroachievements into retrowalkinginthepark.


So here the question, why should i or anyone else attempt to go for Achievements and take this Site any seriously when we already know fr0m the start that the time we spend on the games can be rendered completely obsolete?

It wasn't completely obsolete. Before summer 2018 me and few other devs sometimes used unofficials as place for extra challenge for those who wants it. Something that need very high level of luck or TAS-like inputs or require glitches. This is what bonus sets should be IMO. Not what is it now -- a trash bin for non-standard achievements. And you even need to patch the ROM (!!!) to get to that trash bin. And any bonus set (with few rare exceptions) will just ruin your stats because of separate entry.

Mastered the game but still want extra challenge? Check unofficials and you may find something interesting. Have you did it? You got points and high boost of retro points (because of same entry) for the time spent. Is this achievement too tough for you? No problem. It will not be counted in progression percentage so you'll not be stuck with 95% progress if you did everything in ~Bonus~ set of Mega Man except Mr. Perfect. That's how it was in 2017-2018. And for me it's how bonus sets should be. You can even do this in v1 without major changes. Just limit achievement promotion to unofficial to Super User+ and make all jr devs get status of Super User and keep unofficials moderated.

Later, in summer 2018 people could not get unofficial achievements unlocked anymore. But if they unlocked hard achievement that was demoted later they at least kept their points for the time spent. Although it's still unfair to those who got this achievement before another stupid standard was written in rules like "all game perfection is forbidden even if game can be beaten in 15 minutes like Contra" because the ones who will play set after them will need to spend less time and less efforts to get the same badge.

And in 2020 another update happened. All unofficial achievements is not more counted in total sum of points in retro points in your profile. So now if something is demoted it's literally f-k you, f-k your time and f-k your poke points to all who have earned this achievement. And if someone complaining too much about achievement being too hard without even trying for real I'm always asking myself. Why personal time of this user is more important than thousands of played hours of these who earned these achievement? In case of it's exactly thousands of hours in a sum. Because he wants to post "Mastered" on game page wall?

Posted: 17 Sep, 2020 01:55
Last Edit: 17 Sep, 2020 02:24
Most of unavailable services are down cause they may go through restructuring. Revision voting used to be exclusive for developers and that caused casual players to be unhappy. It was changed and good part of those complaints disappeared but another ones appeared and led us to think about the restructuring. Part of the community will always be unhappy inevitably since we have people with divergent opinions.

Personally I agree the achievement could continue on the set, but according to the current rules:
No Need for Approval
Making changes to an achievement or to an achievement set where you are the original author and no other developer has revised it; it is still a good idea to post the plan for your changes in the forum.

The achievement was made by Matheus and no one had revised it so he is allowed to do it.

I agree with lordpsycho also, it's unfair to judge if your past actions were waste of time. I could say the time I "wasted" playing tag with my friends at my childhood was waste of time. But that would be a lie because at that moment I was having fun even if I think it's dumb now. You should consider the fun you are having when playing instead of consider if you will regret in the future for the time you are dedicating for it.

So here the question, why should i or anyone else attempt to go for Achievements and take this Site any seriously when we already know fr0m the start that the time we spend on the games can be rendered completely obsolete?

My personal answer for this question would just be: Enjoy the present and try to don't be concerned with a future that may not happen. Those concerns are not healthy and may lead you to similar questions like "Why should I continue to live if I can die at any moment?". Just do what is fun for you. If RA is not bringing you pleasure, you should go play another platform, practice a sport or any thing that may be funnier for you at the moment and then come back when you think RA is fun again.

Posted: 17 Sep, 2020 02:17
Last Edit: 17 Sep, 2020 02:18
I get where you are coming about about the having fun and all but I think you fail to understand some aspects of why people get achievements. People generally want to show and show there progress if the hole part was just fun why on earth do they need the achievements. Even if its not to show to anyone but themselves take it away will be seen as a large waist of time to a lot of people and they will be rightful so as they wouldn't have bothered to to x thing other. Just because you think its silly doesn't maen a lot of other see it the same way. It seems more like like people are upset that went threw it but people who didn't are gonna be happy as they have less to do to show there progression. In the context of what it seems alot of people want of achievements and badges i get what they are saying then they regret it/waist time and do it to much will actually make them leave. If i did some of the stuff people are talking and then the set was revised to take it away even id be peeved about it.

Posted: 17 Sep, 2020 02:28
What I mentioned before it's just my opinions and people have different views.
Not everyone play only to be a show off. Personally I couldn't care less if people look at the badges and achievements I earned.

Posted: 17 Sep, 2020 04:07
>why on earth do they need the achievements
for me I like to see them and say "yeah, I did that, it was a pain but did it". And even if they demote them, you know you still did it (although you may not have proof to brag about it)

I completely understand how people can get upset/angry when they spent many hours trying to get an achievement for it to dissapear just like that because "others didn't like it" (or in this case the author decided to remove it because "reasons") but they forget this is a community made by fans and as such it changes, it evolves, maybe not the way we want it to but society works that way, and you can either adapt and get the best out of it or take a break and come back if you ever feel the need to.

If you want achievements that last forever (or until the service ends) you can do PS/Xbox/Steam trophies/achievements, although they may not have certain challenges you can find here.

Posted: 18 Sep, 2020 11:46
Last Edit: 18 Sep, 2020 12:31
And in 2020 another update happened. All unofficial achievements is not more counted in total sum of points in retro points in your profile. So now if something is demoted it's literally f-k you, f-k your time and f-k your poke points to all who have earned this achievement. And if someone complaining too much about achievement being too hard without even trying for real I'm always asking myself. Why personal time of this user is more important than thousands of played hours of these who earned these achievement? In case of  it's exactly thousands of hours in a sum. Because he wants to post "Mastered" on game page wall?


Hey! its FUN to lose it all! (apparently)

Wouldn't be surprised if everyone's statistics being reseted when v2 launches (or later) because of "reasons" aka f-k you all, lets do it all over again because its fun.

What you said answers it all, thanks JAM. I guess i was wrong when i thought that the users time of spending on earning Achievements is being respected.

OK, i wish you all good luck with this 'fun' project that is RetroAchievements and hope you don't nuke it all in the future. Thanks for everything and farewell.
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