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Missable Achievement for RPGs

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kdecks
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 09:35
Last Edit: 05 Feb, 2019 03:34
Because of the potential frustration it can cause most players prefer that missable achievements for RPGs are flagged. Here's what we can do:


1. (devs) The Flag: The flag [m] is to be used as a consistency standard for missables, placed at the end of achievement titles. [m] should not be used to flag anything else, to avoid confusion. The flag can be used on any kind of set but RPGs are the main focus.

2. (devs) New Sets: Flagging missables in new sets is up to your preference. If there are missables for an RPG and you don't flag them,
   ╔════════════════════════════════════════════
   ║Missables
   ║Yes. Unlisted/Listed here (In forum post/guide/etc.)
   ╚════════════════════════════════════════════
   will be be added to the top post of the official forum topic. You can flag missables to any type of set, but the focus here is RPGs of any kind.

3. Current sets: Getting current missables identified and flagged will take a collaborative effort from the community.
a. Any user can either post a list of missables in the forum topic for a game or make a request there for missables to be flagged.
b. Any Dev can take this list and propose adding the flags to a set as a revision.
c. If approved the [m] flags will be added to the titles and in the top post of the official forum topic of that game, it will say,
   ╔════════════════════════════════════════════
   ║Missables
   ║Yes. Flagged [m] at the end of achievement titles
   ╚════════════════════════════════════════════
   See this forum topic for as an example.

d. If not approved,
   ╔════════════════════════════════════════════
   ║Missables
   ║Yes. Unlisted/Listed here (In forum post/guide/etc.)
   ╚════════════════════════════════════════════
   will be be added to the top post of the official forum topic.

e. To prevent showing spoilers a link to a missables guide (if made) will also be posted in the top post of the forum topic,
   ╔════════════════════════════════════════════
   ║RAGuide
   ║No/Missables only/Complete
   ╚════════════════════════════════════════════
   Any user or dev can create a missable guide or a general achievement set guide (use RAGuides) and a revision does not need to be approved for a guide to be posted. See this example guide. Other guides could be more or less detailed. If you've created a guide let the admin know via so we can link the guide in the forum.

4. ✅Getting started: I will add,
   ╔════════════════════════════════════════════
   ║Missables
   ║??
   ╚════════════════════════════════════════════
   To the top post of every current RPG-type set where missables are not identified to help players know when missables have been identified or flagged.

5.Keeping Track: To keep track of everything and collaborate I've create an open spreadsheet listing all RPGs of any kind and any other set that has missables flagged.


Notes:
 - Creating lists of missable achievements or creating guides is an excellent way for non-dev users to contribute to the community.
 - Improvement ideas, questions, comments or talk collaboration should happen in this topic. If there's a need maybe a Discord channel can be made.

Euclide
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 11:10
Tagging descriptions instead of titles seems better to me.

Stax
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 11:32
This is an interesting addition, but why not go all the way and have an achievement flag system in the future? We could take a cue from https://www.trueachievements.com/flags.aspx and while some are irrelevant to RA there are a few that would be useful: Main Storyline, Stackable, Difficulty Specific, Collectable, Missable, Multiple Playthroughs Required, and maybe Cumulative.

It could be left to the community to submit these flags.

meleu
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 11:37
Last Edit: 04 Feb, 2019 11:56
I would like to highlight the item 3.b. "Any Dev can take this list [of missable] and propose adding the flags to a set as a revision."

I suggest devs who don't want their achievements edited, to comment about it on the game's forum topic.

As said in the Dev Code of Conduct "When you publish your work you are giving it over to the community to be reviewed and reworked over time". Therefore the revision process is still applicable, but there's a big chance that a possible reviser will respect the original dev's will.


JAM
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 12:14
It should be done for long games in general. Like Donkey Kong 64.
And it shouldn't be done in short games with longplay about 1 hour.

Jamiras
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 14:18
Last Edit: 04 Feb, 2019 14:18
It seems like having a list in the forum would be sufficient. Why bother putting decorations on the achievement itself? Those will show up when the achievement triggers, when it's linked from anywhere else in the site, and will have no meaning to anyone who hasn't read this post.

If this is going to become standard practice, I recommend writing out [missable] so it's at least clear what the adornment implies.

Evilman
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 15:35
Last Edit: 04 Feb, 2019 15:37
IMO, missables should definitely be marked, but also, a specific description should be used with wise. It's not really fun to discover reading achievements descriptions that your friend at first is in fact the main antagonist of the game, revealed after a plot twist.

My example is not a RPG and this one is not missable, the game also is pretty short and the story is known by most players (I guess), but I remember playing Earthbound for example, some descriptions and cheevos tend to spoil the story if you check the set first to be sure what's missable or not...

So, mark them as missable, but especially use a good description to avoid spoilers for those who never played the game. RPGs are story-driven so it's primordial IMO...

MagusPC
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 15:56
Technically there is no such thing as missables in Retro Games due to lack of auto-saving feature, missables are common among Modern Games with constant auto-saving and no way to creating backups of Save Files. However, most people are lazy to make backups of their Saves nowadays so labeling Cheevos as missable makes sense.

I agree with JAM and Jamiras, it should only be for long games (mostly RPGs) and labeled as [missable] instead of some Code not many understand what that means or simply expand the Cheevo Description by a additional line only for important information like missable achievement or difficulty etc. you get the idea so the regular Description doesn't have to be spammed with 'without dying' 'no damage' 'missables'.

In the end it should be easy to understanding for everyone who doesn't visits the Site daily but still collects Cheevos, sort of newcomer friendly, not confusing people. Using some Cryptic-Signs in Description is not good for casual players. Also it should depend on the length of the game to beat if such label should be used or not or else you can just label any game with Save function as 'missable'.

Thoreau
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 17:49
Let's say tagging missables will become this new standard, what would be an example of a missable achievement that would be better to not be tagged? What would be the arguments for it? I'm asking to understand why there's a need for a whole revision process for each set.

Alena
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 19:07
I do not think marking the achievements is necessary. The forum should be used for this if it becomes a rule...

meleu
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 19:34
It's not going to be a rule.

Selliato
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 20:31
"Tagging descriptions instead of titles seems better to me."

In some platform you can't see the descriptions. For example in retroarch for raspberry.

Searo
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 20:42
Last Edit: 04 Feb, 2019 20:46
In the given example above of the wiki guide page for Link's Awakening DX it lists the last boss no-hit as missable but is it really missable since it is the last boss and you can just start your save again to fight him as much as you want?

I'm asking because in a lot games with no-hit bosses you can just load your last save after beating the game and refight the final boss so I don't know if I should include the final boss in any guides I make. Currently I just put an * next to the number with an explanation below that it is the final boss and you can retry after beating the game.

JAM
Posted: 04 Feb, 2019 21:25
Last Edit: 04 Feb, 2019 21:48
what would be an example of a missable achievement that would be better to not be tagged? What would be the arguments for it? I'm asking to understand why there's a need for a whole revision process for each set.
Major spoilers.


If so, go to the site and read desciptions before starting the new game.

kdecks
Posted: 05 Feb, 2019 03:03
Last Edit: 05 Feb, 2019 03:37
Regarding why a revision is required:
There's been an ongoing discussion about if there needs to be a revision or not in the admin and staff channels. As you can see here there are some devs that prefer titles for achievements they've created to remain unflagged for aesthetic or spoiler reasons.

Because of that we want to include a revision process to allow Devs to have room to object to such changes, and I'd prefer favoring the wishes of Devs who want their sets unflagged (so long as the missables are indicated in the standard place in the forum).


Regarding writing of [missable] instead of [m]:
That should be an acceptable alternative. But I do not worry about users figuring out the flag. They may be able to infer it themselves, and if not it is listed in every top post of the forum it will be defined each time. Using the same flag from game to game is important so that the flag only needs to be understood once.


Regarding Title vs Description Flag:
There is a straw poll in the Discord #poll-me channel. Currently: Title 14:3 Description. So far it seems most prefer the title.


Regarding 's comments:
Marking missables is primarily focused on RPGs for the reasons you've described. They also may suit some other games. We can leave that up to player/developer discretion on if they are noted in the forum or in a RAguide.


Regarding 's comments:
While there is to be a standard for RPGs to list if there are missables or not in the top post of the forum, (if someone does the legwork) we've determined to not require missables for the reasons stated in my response, "Regarding why a revision is required", above. One official standard is that [m] was determined to be the best flag by staff vote.


Regarding 's comments:
All missable can be earned for any game if you do as you've said, knowing when the achievment is missable.
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