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What's your opinion about the Global Leaderboard?

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AuthorMessage

meleu
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 18:02
Post your opinion and the reasoning.


My opinion

We should remove the Global Leaderboard.



My reasoning

I see only one pro in having a Global Leaderboard:

- it's fun to compete against the rest of the world.


Now the cons:

- As it encourages competition between players, it also leads some people to cheating as a way to climb the rank ladder.

- It demands a lot of manpower to moderate properly and create a fair competition. And we clearly don't have this manpower and consequently don't have ways to make it fair. One may argue that it's admin's incompetence, but we're all volunteers here. We work as our free time permits and on what pleases us.

- The inefficiency of maintaining fair competition, the cheating, and cheating accusations bring a toxic atmosphere to this community. Which isn't good.

- As many competitors wants points to climb the rank ladder, they seldom report cheevos that trigger at a wrong time.

- For many competitors the points have a main role here. The fun and challenge are secondary. And some unpleasant episodes have already happened because of this, such as: people complaining about revisions or about sets with so many achievements worth few points (and vice-versa).


My suggestion

In my opinion this site should get rid of the global ranking and emphasize personal achievements.

Alright, I agree that some competition is fun, but we should allow only the comparison between friends, and maybe create custom groups.

If you think someone is cheating, simply remove the cheater from your friend list and it's all done! Let the cheater lie to himself.

BenGhazi
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 18:29
I'd rather fix the problem than remove features and pretend it doesn't happen. Nothing good comes from creating a safe space of ignorance.

>And some unpleasant episodes have already happened because of this, such as: people complaining about revisions or about sets with so many achievements worth few points (and vice-versa).

People are always going to find something to complain about, why cut features to try and appease them when they're just going to find some other minor thing to complain about?

kdecks
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 18:43
Meleu is making a lot of sense.

There's been talk about implementing an XP level system system to give progress more weight.

DrPixel
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 18:48
Totally agree with Ben here. I see no reason why the leaderboards should be removed when the problem can simply be addressed. There's already been substantial progress towards removing ways people can cheat too - normal users can't link roms anymore, and all the trainer/cheat roms have been purged from the database. Those two changes are already great progress, so if there's further improvements on the emulator or site side towards improving cheat protection, then the problem will slowly go away.

I can't speak for the average user, but I personally really enjoy checking the global leaderboards every once in a while. It's nice to see my rank rise as I play more and more stuff. Back when I used to play Steam and PSN games, I really didn't start to get into achievement/trophy hunting until I began frequenting sites like Astats or PSNProfiles, both of which have ranking systems. With no ranking system in place, the site would lose a big incentive for playing. That's just my two cents though.

MagusPC
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 19:08
I am for getting rid of Global Leaderboards (except for LB of the Month) and keep all the Competition among the Achievement Hunters private via Friend-List (maybe one day via Community Groups like TrueAchievements is doing) as it is so much easier to handle Cheaters this way by simply Un-Friend the Cheater and he won't appear in your Friend-Leaderboards anymore then searching for proofs of cheating in a Open Source environment Project.

cosmo1
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 19:23
Trophies can solve this. No more points. Just trophies like PSN.

Thoreau
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 19:41
Replacing points with XP/trophies wouldn't change much. People would still check who has the most.

Agreed with Ben and Pixel.

As resources are scarces, focusing on cheaters in top 5/10 is enough in my opinion, as they have the much bigger visibility anyway.

If you're 120th in the rankings, but there's some, let's say, 12 cheaters ahead of you, and you should be 108th in the rankings, you'll hardly care/notice it, and it clearly doesn't make as much of a difference as if you were 6th in the rankings and should be 2nd because there's 4 cheaters ahead of you. Also in the "120th example", if it happens that you noticed/cared, you would at least feel okay because if the cheaters gets to the top 5/10 they would get researched and probably untracked.

Obviously no human is a god that can assure that someone is 100% a cheater, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything. I honestly think it would be much better if we (as we I obviously say people who care about this matter) spend some efforts in checking the top 5/10 either through a system of public accusation/defense/voting, or a private system of doing a committee of respected members to check accusation/defense and vote.

Tandrilion
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 19:49
Last Edit: 12 Jun, 2018 19:50
The Global Leaderboard is a good idea. We have to combat the cheaters trying to develop meanings to detect them instead of remove the ranking. Delete the ranking is not the best choice to handle with this problem, in fact is the easiest solution, but far from the best one.

I think we have to motivate the competition, competition is nice! Cutting off the ranking will weaken the site and will undermine the community's raison d'ĂȘtre.

BerserkerBR
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 19:49
I am with Ben. Same reason as his

Jamiras
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 19:52
Last Edit: 12 Jun, 2018 19:57
But if you're 120th today, and tomorrow you're 123rd because three people collected enough points to pass you, you might be more likely to take a shortcut just to get back to 120th.

A ranking system allows for the appearance of losing effort. An XP/levelling system is all positive growth.

Since the global leaderboard serves as public bragging rights, there's definitely incentive to be on it. Removing the global leaderboard would eliminate that incentive. As mentioned above, leaderboards among friends could still provide that competitive edge, and you can police (or unfriend) within your local group.

Altomar
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 19:54
Last Edit: 12 Jun, 2018 20:01
I disagree about removing the leaderboard. It's great to know your place regardless where you stand on the board. It's giving you a motivation to keep playing more in order to improve your standing. I don't expect to reach the top 10 but it give me satisfaction each time i see my rank going up even by a small percentage.

As for people who cheat eventually we will have to improve the tools to prevent them as much as we can. No one is expecting the admins to spend their time hunting for suspects but for the ones you caught or have proofs, you should punish them by banning them temporary e.g. 1st time for 2 weeks , 2nd time a month and eventually permanent ban like many gaming companies do to protect the rest who play fair. This will prevent many from cheating if they know that if they get caught they might lose their progress. If you are a completionist or hardcore player who want to reach the top 10 / top 20 you will think twice before you cheat. Casual players doesn't care about the rank or mastering a hard set and rarely they will try to cheat their progress.

Arcaderama
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 20:13
Last Edit: 12 Jun, 2018 20:17
Guys, we need to be objective here!

As said, in past we had players here changing and breaking achievements and some developers being blamed, the trainee/cheat ROMs were linked to the main sets. But a lot has been fixed: RAtools, RAWeb etc.

Half of the games or more should be corrected or improved. If a guy gets points for playing these sets, I can't blame him. We know it aren't perfect, and sometimes weird things happen that are out of anyone's control.

Look at the past: http://retroachievements.org/viewtopic.php?t=6081 already in the middle of this year we already have a lot more improvements.

I agree with temporary ban (2 weeks, 1 month) and points are reseted for the game. Get 3 strikes and your account is banned permanently.



ikki5
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 20:21
Last Edit: 12 Jun, 2018 20:22
My opinion on this:

"We should remove the Global Leaderboard."

This is a stupid idea.

You one pro-having fun should out weight all of your cons.

As for the idea of people with saying "we should use trophies and XP," That is not removing the ranks. Really that is just applying a pallet swap over what we currently have. There will always be someone with the most "EXP" and highest level. And besides, people are more likely cheating just to get the achievements more than what they actually care for their "ranking position." Seriously, how often do you get people actually commenting on their rank over "Hey, look what game I mastered?" Etc. Removing the global rankins will not really remove the cheaters, it may remove some but it's impact would be as much of an impact as removing .txt documents to free up space on your computer. There is nothing really wrong with rankings as it is anyway. Even PSN has a ranking, you can even compare it with your friends and other users, etc. and removing ranks would just be... more boring as the competitive aspect is gone completely and with that, you'll probably lose a huge part of the community atmosphere.

"- It demands a lot of manpower to moderate properly and create a fair competition."

Welcome to the internet and maintaining a community, especially a large one. Overall, this just to me looks like you're complaining about it taking too much work for a few to deal with (which could very well probably be the case since we have more users than actual achievements earned). Yes, you are a volunteer but maybe, you need to get more people who are willing to help with moderating the community, not necessarily make them admin, maybe create a new "group."

"- As many competitors wants points to climb the rank ladder, they seldom report cheevos that trigger at a wrong time. "

The ranking system is not the cause of people not reporting achievements. Yeah, some it may be the reason but I am pretty sure the the amount of people that actually use the ranking as a reason to not report a broken achievement are a small minority in a minority of people.

Now... those two points are pretty much the only two points as most of your points are just repeats, said a different way or all tie into the same thing. But like I said before, We should be focusing on the overall fun, rather than removing the parts are are fun, and are some of the biggest potential in what drive this site.

I hate to admit it but if the achievements were nothing but something to compare with your friends... I probably would not have stayed. This is the reason why Nintendo frustrates me when it comes to achievements because on their games, that's basically all they are, there is no real system. The only difference with this is you would at least get to see your friends which... really are only a single person here, that being . Yeah, others I may call friends here within the community but when it all comes down to it, she is the only one I know here in real life and really, she'd be the only one I'd compare to which would get boring and I probably would not have lasted here very long without the kind of drive, from the ranking system, keeping me here.

So really, you can go ahead and change the point system to something else and give it a new coat of paint, but removing the ranking system all together? That would be self annihilation for this community in the long run.

kdecks
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 20:22
Last Edit: 12 Jun, 2018 20:34
These are not "easy to fix" problems.

The global leaderboard is "just for fun" and you can cheat so long as you don't get caught.

Because
We cannot police it in a serious way. Analyzing cheaters is highly demanding and uncertain. Quite often there is plenty of reasonable doubt.

Essentially
Admin are not going to untrack players unless it's very obvious they are cheating.

BerserkerBR
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 20:31
the untracked feature was working pretty good in my opinion but we must not be afraid to use it
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