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Cheaters

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AuthorMessage

jplima
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 21:51
The punishment system is the best idea, if you get caught cheating you must reset your points on that game, if you get caught for the third time, you'll be banned. Admins will just have to analyze proofs submitted by other users.

Salsa
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 22:05
Last Edit: 12 Jun, 2018 22:09
In my opinion, in very controversial case where a player is mastering sets easily even for very hard games, they should provide proof for public verification, like a footage of gameplay of the hardest game they mastered, or several different games if that won't be enough. Still forcing any person to bring such evidence, might not be good idea - they should show it by themselves to proof their bona fides.
On the one side I understand everyone who think those ranks shouldn't be treated seriously, because of all flaws we have, especially points being very much unbalanced. On the other hand, there are players who can't stand potential cheaters, and at some point of their frustration they even quit. And that's not only because they are focused on competition - most of them don't really care about it, but they are honest players, for whom such behaviour is questionable or even disturbing.
My proposition is allowing an option of filtering out players from global leaderboard, and not displaying global leaderboard while you are logged out. If you don't want to see someone on the leaderboards, you will be able to create local blacklist. This is a fresh idea though, I don't know how hard would be to implement such system, or is it possible at all.

kdecks
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 22:11
Last Edit: 12 Jun, 2018 22:18
My personal stance is no nonsense and strict. If you are found cheating you should be untracked. No second chances. If you are found abusing games, abusing battery saves, for easy points, that's cheating too.

But luckily I'm just one of many admin, and together we end up with a more balanced result.


And considering the pain of the entire process: Investigating, examining time stamps with a fine-toothed comb, arguing validity, confronting players, arguing through their defenses, personal biases, time spend testing games. The fact that there are undetectable means of cheating. That there is a high probability of many top players cheating. Often the "proof" isn't proof, but ambiguous, justifiable evidence. We don't want to punish someone who doesn't deserve it!

A global leaderboard will reward a dedicated, careful cheater more than an honest player. It's unfortunate.

But players want to feel progress. It's satisfying to see your rank go up even if there are cheaters above you.

These are uncomfortable realities. So if players want to keep the leaderboard then lets just all play fun games and do our best, taking it all with a grain of salt.

kdecks
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 22:12
Last Edit: 12 Jun, 2018 22:20
@salsa I think that's an interesting idea.

I also think getting top players to provide video proof of ability occasional isn't unreasonable at all.

BerserkerBR
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 22:25
I see...

But I think that what the admins consider "evidence" is kinda disappointing...

I could even understand the conclusion of one specific case of revoking the untracked status of someone that we discuted in private (not that I believed that guy story and the fact that his real life was in "trouble"), but I see that happening to almost everybody that was untracked...

From a long time I didnt care for cheaters either but since we are moving foward with the site I thought this issue was going to be more properly adressed...

I will wait some more to see how things are going to turn up but if nothing chances i will consider suspending my patronage since i dont agree with cheaters consuming bandwich and look smart with it

Salsa
Posted: 12 Jun, 2018 22:42
Last Edit: 13 Jun, 2018 00:27
@kdecks Well, I don't think it's unreasonable. I mean I would prefer it to be kind of individual duty. Like I found more legitimate, because I saw his streams not once (which I found helpful in debuggin multiple times too).

@BerserkerBR Hunting cheaters is very ungratful job... It's easy to have an opinion, and say something, much harder to deal with actual tasks like such, especially when you need to do kind of drastic action against someone who is here just to have fun... or maybe something more. And you are never 100% sure, if you did something right or not...

DonCosmo
Posted: 13 Jun, 2018 03:15
I wasn't going to touch this topic, but yeah I'm gonna.

1. BerserkerBR strap on a pair and use my name.

2. By the time I found out I even got untracked I was tracked again. So I look and there is a message about some gameboy castlevania achievement, I think it was 2? Something about a time run, it was impossible? How am I supposed to explain that? I can't tell anybody why it unlocked, or when for that matter. Bug at the time? Rom I used was a different dump than the one used, or different region? I don't know.

3. Every accusal ever always seems to be something that either unlocked at the wrong time, or was bugged and supposedly impossible, etc etc. I have never made a set for RA, I do not know what goes into the process. I don't bother learning because of the toxic garbage in this community such as this thread. So when you show me a screenshot of rich presence saying im playing frogger with 52834765248564895643 lives, Again, I don't know, I would definitely have noticed that in game if it happened, and honestly I am not here for anyone's opinion.

4. Many of you, not even admins, but many of you take yourselves amusingly seriously. I don't know who else got untracked or why, and it's none of my business therefore I don't give two shits.

5. Nobody can ever seem to explain how it is supposedly being done either. I am supposed to be hacking memory address codes into the roms? Didn't we add checksum verification recently? How about for saves? Please if you can implement anything to shut these pricks the hell up by all means you have my blessing. Make it impossible so they will piss off lol.

6. I challenge every member of this site to watch my every move from now on. For a handful of you that wont be any different because its been your hobby for over a year now. I welcome your scrutiny, be brutal, get it out of your systems, burn that impotent rage all up and walk away when you find nothing, and then kindly fuck off.

7. Threatening to not be a patron over a personal issue with somebody that you don't carry the berries to speak of is weak, you are embarassing yourself. (gee who do I mean?!)

DonCosmo
Posted: 13 Jun, 2018 03:22
I also suggest implementing mandatory screenshots taken by the emulator itself and uploaded for all to see for ever achievement as a future feature. Kind of like PSN.

Adultery
Posted: 13 Jun, 2018 04:35
Last Edit: 13 Jun, 2018 04:40
^^ It's lonely up at the top, eh ?

Don't take it personal, when you're up there people are gonna target you.

I personally think it's funny so many people are this passionate about some stupid leaderboard. I thought we were here to play games? If I used a save state, does that make me a cheater too? Aren't I really just chatting myself?? What's next, I got an achievement because of bad programming and didn't report it, so I get banned now?

If ya cheat, ya play yaself. I seriously doubt that so many people here are concerned with that aspect of this site. It's about earning achievements and replaying great games from my childhood. At least for me it is.

And just because you don't like something, or can't do something as well as someone else, doesn't mean it's wrong or punishable.

It almost feels like the top 10 is completely unenjoyable because a handful of people will be all over your merits and you can never really be about that top spot you worked hard to earn. Unless, of course, you're Billy Mitchell.

If you need me, I'll be back here in the 1500s, chillin, enjoying my play throughs without all the "top dog" drama. :)

kdecks
Posted: 13 Jun, 2018 06:16
Last Edit: 13 Jun, 2018 06:23
Not a bad idea Cosmo.

Being at the top is prestigious, and competition, especially for top (10) players deserves careful review. We want to know our top players are legit so it's means something, and is honorable. Video proof is the standard in the speed-running, and is incredibly easy to setup.

Claiming you don't cheat doesn't mean anything. Have you seen the amount of verbal gymnastics that Billy Mitchell is willing to go through?

Are you willing to prove you are as capable as it seems? Last time you we're asked for video proof you we're aggressive-dismissive. Considering how it's incredibly easy to record gameplay and upload it to YouTube... Also, the videos would be quite entertaining for the community and they would give you more credibility.


https://obsproject.com/

HippopotamusRex
Posted: 13 Jun, 2018 11:16
I've seen this site lose a TON of top players for this exact reason. Fernando, Danmeyer, Kasumariii.... this is a huge issue and the reason there is not going to be any retention of actual top players here.

I'm here because pragmatically it's the best place around and there's no competition to this idea in terms of a sister community with a sincere aim at cheat protection. But cheating is my biggest concern with this project. Unfortunately I also realize there's no perfect solution. I've just tended to dial back my involvement in putting much effort into going after more sets because of this. The other players who left obviously had a different approach and just decided it wasn't worth it.

My recommendation would be logging more than simply timestamps on the unlocks. Other parts of the file data. Stuff that can be corroborated with scripted movies. Multi-variant dimensions that won't line up in natural play but will line up in unnatural play and cause a red flag.

It would have to be a case by case basis for the game on which of these multi-variant places you could snapshot along with the timestamp. And it wouldn't be something we would be able to see as users. For instance, in Ninja Gaiden one of the multi-variant addresses attached to each achievement could be health remaining. So if someone killed the Demon with all health remaining and didn't have the swirl, that would be a combined factor red flag because in normal play you would get hit by the falling head every time. I mean unless you are TAS perfect with your cancel slashes. And even then, those two oddities combined would open up a rabbit hole to check for more multivariant impossibilities. Suppose someone was TAS perfect and is super human. But the seemingly fishy red flag tells you to check the multivariant anaylsis for how many down slashes they did in the Demon fight. They did 0. Thus they are using infinite health.

BerserkerBR
Posted: 13 Jun, 2018 14:52
Very well, DonCosmo I will use everybody name from now on. You, Deyvid and Sigma62 are cheaters. End of history.

By the way how is your health? you are playing pretty good to someone who has been on death's door and could not lift a finger. Are you playing with your teeth? Funny it happened at the same time you got untracked.

About not been a patron anymore it is really simple. I refuse to pay for you to cheat. Simple. No mistery at all.

But dont worry, you can cheat as much as you like from now on because I wont care. I will still be around doing my stuff but my money wont be here. Maybe it wont matter, and the other patrons might not even care, but if we have bandwich problems you should open your wallet this time.

How about it?

rodrigojorel
Posted: 13 Jun, 2018 18:24
Last Edit: 13 Jun, 2018 18:25

I'm just a simple player, but I see reality in Berserker's words.
I have already contacted some administrators and even sent a message to RAadm, but there was no response or attitude regarding the traffickers, even though I specifically pointed out the illegal acts.
I'm of the opinion that cheating users fool only themselves and do not care what they think they get out of it. Women, money, fame, please ....
So my suggestion is to briefly ban them or end the ranking, leaving only the score. That excuse to give back the points that were caught cheating is ridiculous (which country if a thief returns the fruit of a robbery he is forgiven?)
Unfortunately, again and probably will not be heard, do what right.

MaxR
Posted: 13 Jun, 2018 19:00
Does all of this thread mean that carefully cheating is allowed? :O

rodrigojorel
Posted: 13 Jun, 2018 19:14
Last Edit: 13 Jun, 2018 19:50
MaxR, apparently, here in RA use the theory of insignificance, and should be the theory of broken windows or zero tolerance.
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