Small Achievement Revision Update allowed?
Posted: 09 Aug, 2017 11:00
Hello everyone, i have a short question and not sure where to ask so i put this here in Chat.
I would like to make few (~5) Achievements for a Game which already has ~40. Is this acceptable or does it have to be more? or is there any other restrictions i don't know about?
Contra and Super C recently got a Achievement Revision update and i think of adding 5 more or so. Quality over Quantity of course, i don't want to spam with bad Achievements.
My question, is it allowed to make small Revision updates for a Game?
Posted: 09 Aug, 2017 13:03
Hey there. There's no minimum to a revision size.
What's your plan?
Posted: 09 Aug, 2017 14:00
Hi, i don't have any specifications for the Achievements yet and i don't want to rush it and make random Achievements people won't enjoy. That is why i ask before developing some, i also don't want to put effort into something that won't happen.
I prefer Achievements which anyone can get who put some effort into them, not to easy but also not to hard, it should be fun to achieve after all.
It would also be a chance for me to get some knowledge how to created and publish Achievements for RA and maybe help this site with some Games in the future.
Posted: 09 Aug, 2017 14:27
I've always believed in asking the original developer of the set if it is fine to add them. I've always been fine with achievement additions to my sets when other people message me beforehand, this way the original developer can help you critique and test the new achievements and make sure the new achievements do not break the balance of the set.
Posted: 09 Aug, 2017 14:59
Yeah if it is a game that people already mastered it's not fair to change the achievements without talking to the original developer and those that have mastered the game.
I really think that we should start locking achievements for complete sets by vote of the community of course to judge of the quality of the cheevos beforehand.
Posted: 09 Aug, 2017 15:45
My personal opinion, if you can add to a set and improve upon it, go for it. Really, the only time I say the original developer should be involved is if you want to make achievements for a game that does not have a set but the developer is actively working on. The reason for this is if a set is being worked on, the developer had put in a ton of time find the memory addresses and just overall playing the game and planning what they want. When the game is done and uploaded... it is kind of like they have said "my work is done." I kind of dislike the ones that will upload some and then respond with "more are coming."
But really, if you can improve a set, you should be able to. As some have said before, a set doesn't really belong to a single person as really, that will only limit what a game can be and limits the over all creativity of achievements. Now, it still might be a good idea to talk to some people and get their opinions of your plans before hand.
Posted: 09 Aug, 2017 19:24
Last Edit: 09 Aug, 2017 19:25
edit: posting from second account
Thanks for the input. I don't want to ruin or steal someone else effort, i respect peoples work.
Contacting the creator of a set before adding new Achievements is a good idea because of the compatibility issues it could cause or help finding offsets and values for new ones. I think teamwork is a good thing for a Community like RA, one can search for offsets and values while others are working on Badges and testing Achievements for bugs.
Contra and Super C have both a important Achievement missing, the classic Laser only without dying, this is one i would like to see and few others i got on my mind but not sure yet if it will work out.
Posted: 09 Aug, 2017 19:41
Last Edit: 09 Aug, 2017 19:54
Personally I think that original developer don't own the set, but his/her work should be respected as much as it is possible.
For me achievement set, as a goal, is not just list of achievements, but an integrated completeness, which consist of strict elements like coverage (how well the contents of the game were reflected with material provided by the memory) and creativity (half of it being visual aesthetics and wordiness - proper icons, and titles/descriptions; another half being custom challenge), and critical elements like balance and quality, which affect overall impression.
If you have an idea to add something that won't be redundand, or won't hurt the integration here, you are free too go. Nevertheless I would like to know your ideas (what you think would be still good to add here, not what you want to).
In my opinion "Laser only without dying" will be overall redundand to the concept, as it is really similiar to "Gunless", end even if you will take to the accout the difference between these weapons (default and laser), the strategy of the walktrough trough is not that different. There is also
If you want to make some achievements yourself it's also better to find something that won't be be just a slightly modified variant of another achievement code-wisely. Otherwise you can simply ask the person who did such achievement to reconsider adding more achievements.
Posted: 09 Aug, 2017 20:08
Last Edit: 09 Aug, 2017 20:13
Hi Salsa and thanks for the new Contra Achievements! I had a great time.
The Laser in Contra is basically the Default Weapon (4 Bullets) just in a straight line so you can't shoot in multiple directions at the same time, you have to be more accurate with placing the Laser shoots than the Default Gun.
The real Challenge with using the Laser comes when facing multiple targets at once for example the flying bubbles in Stage 4 Boss or dealing Damage per Second. I do understand you but honestly, the Default Gun is the next best Gun after S especially if you put R on it, it outshines M and F. In Super C the Laser is even more difficult to use than the S or the OP F (charged).
IMO Laser only without dying would be a nice Challenge especially in Super C because it has more targets at screen and bullets fly in multiple directions.
edit: Laser only without dying was just the one that was on my mind the entire time while doing the set for both Games thats why i mentioned it. It would be nice if you could add it to the set you already did.
Posted: 09 Aug, 2017 22:59
You can shoot laser only in one direction, but it's stronger then default gun, and makes every single boss much easier to kill. Regardless of the weapon, if you know these games well enough, the weapon actually doesn't matter that much. These challenges are really similiar, becasue you have similiar strategies for anything except S (which is much easier), but if you prefer to have laser instead if defaulft weapon (it's a bit harder challenge I agree), I could easily switch them. No need to make another achievement here in my opinion. Regardless both of these are challenges hard enough to include in the Bonus set.
Posted: 09 Aug, 2017 23:08
But if people keep modifying already complete sets because they don't like something about it would become a big mess.
I really think we should start locking some complete sets when it becomes clear they're good, work fine and are not too easy.
Posted: 10 Aug, 2017 01:52
There is no need for a change Salsa, the Achievements are fine as they are and i used the Laser only just as a example of a small Revision update. Its not a big deal if the Laser only is missing and i agree with amine that editing Achievements ain't a good thing, people are getting confused and it could become a mess.
Back to topic, thanks everyone for the input. Creating Achievements for a Game is new to me and i started this thread to get a better overall picture what people think of Revision updates as most Games already have a Achievement set. I didn't even knew that its possible to use and edit already designed Achievement Code and to be honest i don't like to use Code from others as it can easily lead to bugs cause of lack of understanding what some values actually do. I find it better to research it by yourself as you get a better more clear picture then, don't get confused with searching values thats something different.
So what i am getting from this discussion is that small Revision updates are acceptable but its better to get in contact with the creator of the original set. I am sure more people will want to make their own Achievements in the future and small Revision updates will be more common then now.
I agree with amine again on the locking Achievements because at some point when this Site gets bigger and more popular people want more and more and the overview will get lost and it could easily become spammed, i am all for Quality over Quantity and i know how bad Achievements can be, i made some fair experience with the Xbox 360 especially when it comes to percent completion and nonsense DLC Achievements and how it can ruin the percentage. Quality should always be priority.
Maybe there could be a Sub-set Achievement Category for each Game in the future for people who want more Challenge in their favorite Games, it could be Sub-sets which are turned off by default and doesn't affect the Official sets or percentage but can be turned on via checkbox on this Site if you want the extra Challenge similar to the Bonus Contra. I personally like the idea of a Bonus set because unlike Official sets it can be build for casuals or hardcore players or multiplayer. IMO Multiplayer Achievements shouldn't be in Official set but thats a different topic.
Again, thanks for the input. Getting in contact with the creators of the sets is a good idea.
Posted: 10 Aug, 2017 15:30
There is a bonus set and you can add to it: http://retroachievements.org/Game/5948
Posted: 10 Aug, 2017 17:51
I only agree to add more cheevs much time later only if really its missing important achievments in the game, I will give a example.
If you have a RPG you expect to have cheevs for beating bosses and getting the final weapons but for some reason it was no possible to map that Ultima Weapon so the game has +40 achievments but dont have that expexted "Get Masamune" in that case its acceptable for me and doesnt matter how many chhevs had it before.
But its strange for me the OP want to make cheevs for a game who already has a lot of cheevs and maybe dont need more, in that case has many more game who deserves attention with less than 10 or not single one, so I'd say to put your passion on other games.
Posted: 12 Aug, 2017 18:22
Last Edit: 12 Aug, 2017 18:32
I've said this before, very recently: there's nothing wrong with improving old sets (especially abandoned ones) where the developer may have not have known the game well enough (leaving 25-75% of the game content not covered) or was not the best coder (unclaimed broken achievements). This was an issue which came up a lot before I started developing. But it's not good practice and can be seen as disrespectful to not acknowledge a recently published set declared completed by a very recently active dev. If we like to talk about the games (which is a given, being an online community and forum) there should be communication between the three parties: the players who have played and possibly mastered the game (forum-wise), the original developer, and the new dev who is proposing further challenge (missed opportunities), unless the old dev went awol for a very long time.
To the previous point, I've said as well: there are many games which get neglected, games that have been requested with no attention from any currently active devs for long periods of time, and the most commercially mainstream gets supplemented with adding either very little or ridiculous challenges. I always suggest for players and devs to try games they don't know so well, or never played, that may give you the challenge you seek.
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