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Pokemon Stadium

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AuthorMessage

gde
Posted: 11 Jul, 2019 21:22
I like the idea of doing something with the transfer pak, but I have some reservations.

The first is the lack of precedent. The set would require using a second ROM to complete, which is something I haven't seen in any other set. I'm also unsure if the transfer pak can be emulated by all supported n64 emulators.. I only know of RAP64. The "legality" of requiring the use of the transfer pak would probably have to be discussed.

Then, if using the transfer pak were allowed, I think the achievements would have to follow at least 2 guidelines:

1. Be simple / require little effort in the GBC game. Otherwise I'd be creating a set within a set, which would be pretty funny, but not very appropriate IMO.

2. Focus on the interaction between Stadium and the GBC game; no using Stadium simply as an emulator.

Your suggestion about the surfing Pikachu minigame is perfect in regards to (2), because the minigame can only be reached legitimately using Stadium. However, I worry that it would be too much in regards to (1), because obtaining a Pikachu with Surf requires beating Master Ball Prime Cup R-2 whilst playing 2v3 every battle, forcing the player to have very strong Pokemon in the save file. That's not something you can get quickly in a legitimate way and would make the set impossible to master using only rental Pokemon.


BenGhazi
Posted: 11 Jul, 2019 22:11
Last Edit: 11 Jul, 2019 22:17

The first is the lack of precedent. The set would require using a second ROM to complete, which is something I haven't seen in any other set.

The linked content for the Oracle games recently went through a revision vote and the achievements that require both games were moved to the core set so we have that to set a precedent. That being said, I believe this is the intended way to play the games as opposed to renting some premade pokemon, it breaks the whole spirit of pokemon which is capturing and creating a team of pokemon and as such we should allow achievements to be made for content that requires a transfer pack.


The "legality" of requiring the use of the transfer pak would probably have to be discussed.

What do you mean by legality?

Euclide
Posted: 11 Jul, 2019 22:17
"The first is the lack of precedent. The set would require using a second ROM to complete, which is something I haven't seen in any other set."
Some achievements for require clearing the first game, which is a fairly intensive cross-title requirement. There might be others, but I cannot think of any right now. If there are few precedents, it is mostly because few games have such interactions in the first place.

"I'm also unsure if the transfer pak can be emulated by all supported n64 emulators.. I only know of RAP64."
That is valid.

"1. Be simple / require little effort in the GBC game. Otherwise I'd be creating a set within a set, which would be pretty funny, but not very appropriate IMO."
I agree for the most part, but if there is content locked behind some requirements in the other title, then I think it is fine to go as far as the minimum required to access that content, even if it does require some effort.

"2. Focus on the interaction between Stadium and the GBC game; no using Stadium simply as an emulator."
Agreed.

So given my position I think the suggested surfing minigame is fine.

gde
Posted: 11 Jul, 2019 23:09
Last Edit: 11 Jul, 2019 23:09
Thanks & , I guess there's some precedent after all. Ironically enough, I mastered the Oracle games recently, but didn't realize the similarity to this situation.

"That being said, I believe this is the intended way to play the games as opposed to renting some premade pokemon, it breaks the whole spirit of pokemon which is capturing and creating a team of pokemon and as such we should allow achievements to be made for content that requires a transfer pack."
I was stuck thinking about the isolation of the set... but that makes a lot of sense. The game was never made to be played in isolation, so it makes no sense to limit the set to ensure it can be beaten without the transfer pak.

"What do you mean by legality?"
Should have used another word. I was referring to whether requiring the transfer pak to complete the set would be allowed by the rules of RA itself.

Consider me convinced.

Blazekickn
Posted: 11 Jul, 2019 23:11
Last Edit: 11 Jul, 2019 23:21
I dont think retroarch supports the transfer pak so they'd be rap64 exclusive.

You could easily provide a yellow save file at the surfing pikachu house with all the premade movesets and whatnot you'd need for challenge achievements

gde
Posted: 14 Jul, 2019 22:33
Like I promised in my OP, here's a better (though not final) plan that doubles as a live progress report: Link.

Implementation's going well, just a bit slow due to lack of time.

Scoring the cheevos is actually the hardest part for me right now. I feel that what constitutes an easy or hard achievement is very personal and whatever value I choose can easily be argued down or up by different kinds of players... Consider the points of the cheevos a WIP.

Prism
Posted: 15 Jul, 2019 10:06
, you've certainly done a great job with the set so far, but I would personally value all of the cup completion achievements higher in terms of points. As I recall, each one takes a fair amount of time to complete. I would also increase the amount of points given to the various mini-game challenges; if something requires a reasonable amount of skill, it should at least be worth a minimum of 5 points. Finally, I might have missed it, but I didn't see an achievement for registering all 151 Pokemon in the Victory Palace. Technically, this would require the transfer pack because you can't rent Mewtwo, but since there is an in-game reward (Amnesia Psyduck) for doing this, it should probably be covered. Alternatively, you could structure achievements for registering specific numbers of Pokemon, like 25, 50, 75, 100, 125, and 150; that way, the transfer pack wouldn't be necessary.

gde
Posted: 15 Jul, 2019 21:21
Thanks for the feedback .

I agree that the scores of the cups should be increased, given their expected time to completion. I was initially hesitant to add too many points to the set, especially considering that many players clearly see mechanical skill as much more worthy of points than time-consuming achievements. There's a fundamental disagreement here that makes achievements hard to score in a way that pleases most players.

As for the Victory Palace achievement, I plan to create one using the Amnesia Psyduck reward, as you suggested. It's not in the doc yet, because I haven't completely thought through the transfer-pak-related achievements. I'm leaving them for last.

Prism
Posted: 15 Jul, 2019 22:33
You're welcome. Time, along with difficulty, significance, and achievement spread, are the main factors to consider when assigning point values to achievements. They are all important, and only a very small minority thinks that only difficulty should be considered. I'm happy you are working to create an achievement for the Amnesia Psyduck; it still might be a good idea to have one (for 75 Pokemon) or two (for 50 and 100 Pokemon) other incremental achievements since this task will take a inordinate amount of time.

gde
Posted: 16 Jul, 2019 23:24
Some bad news about the Surfing Pikachu minigame. It appears that not even Project 64 is able to run the GB Tower properly, even though the transfer pak is supported. In Stadium 1 the GB emulator doesn't even show up. Stadium 2 works with Glide64 graphics plugin, but the performance is so bad that it's unplayable.

In project 64's github repo there are some issues where players have requested better support, but no luck so far ( https://github.com/project64/project64/issues/1461 and other linked issues).

Even though the GB Tower is a no go, I'm still planning on implementing the other achievements related to Surfing Pikachu and Amnesia Psyduck as prize pokemon.

Euclide
Posted: 17 Jul, 2019 10:45
Last Edit: 17 Jul, 2019 10:46
Did you test it yourself? Do you have a save state?

"Stadium 1 looks like an issue with the core or input plugin."
Maybe a different plugin combination for those + angrylion will work, this issue doesn't seem that conclusive.

gde
Posted: 17 Jul, 2019 23:01
When I posted the comment I had tested with the built-in plugins of Proj64 with no success. Coupled with what I read I concluded the GB Tower was a no go.

I've now tested with angrylion too, with the same results. The input plugin cannot be changed, only NRage supports the transfer pak. I did manage to get better performance in Stadium 2 by using the interpreter instead of the recompiler, but that's it.

Regarding the save state, I don't think I could give you one, because the input plugin still needs to have the GB rom and save files set. Still, the GB Tower is available without doing anything in the game, so it's easy to try it out even with no save states.

also suggested I try retroarch, but I had no success there either. mupen64plus supports the transfer pak (though I had to go down the rabbit hole of config files to get it working), but the GB Tower doesn't work either.

Unless someone else manages to get this working, I guess we'll have to do with no GB Tower cheevos.

Blazekickn
Posted: 17 Jul, 2019 23:39
I remember seeing the gb tower work at some point but mightve been my imagination. Unfortunate but we'll live. I'd still like to see some transfer pak exclusives. Battling using a custom save file with unique movesets is an idea.

gde
Posted: 10 Aug, 2019 18:56
The set's finished and live!

Of the original 7 linked ROMs only the US versions are compatible with the set, so the others were unlinked.

1. Pokemon Stadium (USA).z64
Pokemon Stadium (U) (V1.0) [!].z64
Pokemon Stadium Rev 0 (2000)(Creatures - Game Freak - Nintendo)(US).bin
RA Checksum: ed1378bc12115f71209a77844965ba50
CRC32 Checksum: 72F66F05

2. pokemon stadium (usa) (rev a).bin
RA Checksum: a029cf9b7d15e30fb88e472d965b2865
CRC32 Checksum: 7BB7489F

The first one (ed1378bc12115f71209a77844965ba50) was used to develop the set, so I'd recommend playing with that one to minimize the probability of bugs.

The Brazilian Portuguese translation is a patch of the US version, so it could probably be supported with some text-based cheevo changes. That would take some work, however, so I'll only consider it if there's decent demand.

7. Pokemon Stadium (U) (V1.0) [T+Bra1.0_Joelson Kamppello].z64
RA Checksum: a5a2f730795599fadb1992df79ef122b
CRC32 Checksum: 7F20604F

gde
Posted: 13 Aug, 2019 23:47
The following ROM was also unlinked:

2. pokemon stadium (usa) (rev a).bin
RA Checksum: a029cf9b7d15e30fb88e472d965b2865
CRC32 Checksum: 7BB7489F

The ROM looked compatible with the development ROM on the surface, as evidenced by the many achievements that triggered correctly by players using it, but there are slight differences that caused some achievements not to trigger.

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