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Shining Force II

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cirellio
Posted: 21 Aug, 2013 23:57
Official Topic Post for discussion about
Created 21 Aug, 2013 23:57 by

Resources:
www.google.com/search?q=site:www.gamefaqs.com+Shining+Force+II+Mega+Drive
www.google.com/search?q=site:www.longplays.org+Shining+Force+II+Mega+Drive
www.google.com/search?q=site:en.wikipedia.org+Shining+Force+II+Mega+Drive

cirellio
Posted: 22 Aug, 2013 00:17
Time to brainstorm!
I think there's an Ouch! difficulty level, and something after the end credits too.
It's been awhile since I played this so I could use some help on ideas.

Scott
Posted: 22 Aug, 2013 09:34
I've never noticed any difference in the difficulty level, they all seem very similar! Yes there's a boss battle after the credits, it's pretty easy though compared to some other battles!

I'd be interested to see how the difficulty level actually affects the game

cirellio
Posted: 22 Aug, 2013 14:16
Summarizing your ideas from chat:
-faerie battle
-endgame secret boss battle
-collecting *all* the mythril
-promoting characters to certain levels
-making SARAH into a monk
-finding all the secret characters

cirellio
Posted: 23 Aug, 2013 16:09
Event Progression:
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Steal back the other jewel


Win the fight on Mt. Volcano


Or rather, DEFEAT THE KRAKEN!!!


Defeat Talos


You done shrunk, son


Win the Chess Battle


Take flight using the Nazca Ship


Win the Prism Flowers battle


Defeat Zalbard, one of the four Greater Devils


Defeat Cameela, one of the four Greater Devils


Defeat Geshp, one of the four Greater Devils


Defeat Odd-Eye, one of the four Greater Devils


Defeat Zeon


Kiss the beautiful Princess Elis

Battle Challenges:
~~~~~~~~~~~

Suffer no casualties during the raid on Polca


Suffer no casualties while facing THE KRAKEN


Defeat Talos without consuming MP


Clear the harpy pool battle on Hard or higher difficulty


Win the Chess Battle on Super difficulty


Suffer no casualties during the battle for Pangoat Bridge


Ensure SHEELA gets the killing blow against Red Baron


Suffer no casualties while climbing the Tower of the Ancients


Win the battle against the Possessed King on Super difficulty


Ensure BOWIE gets the killing blow against Zeon


Ensure SLADE gets the killing blow against Zeon


Win the battle against the Zeon on Super difficulty


Win the mysterious secret boss battle


Win the secret boss battle on Super difficulty

misc.:
~~~~

Drink the soapy water


Find the 'SEGA GUIDE'


Find 'THE ANCIENT TOWER'


Find the Chirrup Sandals


Refuse Oddler both times


Add some tasteful wood paneling to this tree


Pick up the Running Ring


Gaze upon the awesomeness that is you


Find a way to cross the river


Force JAHA to lug around four mithril at once


You used the config cheat, hopefully only after earning all the achievements

Recruits:
~~~~~

Recruit KAZIN


Recruit SLADE


Recruit KIWI [OPTIONAL]


Recruit MAY [OPTIONAL]


Recruit PETER


Recruit GERHALT


Recruit LUKE


Recruit RICK [OPTIONAL]


Recruit ELRIC


Recruit ROHDE


Recruit SKREECH [OPTIONAL]


Recruit TAYA [OPTIONAL]


Recruit FRAYJA


Recruit JARO [OPTIONAL]


Recruit SHEELA [OPTIONAL]


Recruit CLAUDE [OPTIONAL]

Promotions (complete):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Promote BOWIE to class Hero


Promote CHESTER to class Paladin

Promote CHESTER to class Pegasus Knight


Promote JAHA to class Gladiator

Promote JAHA to class Baron


Promote SARAH to class Vicar

Promote SARAH to class Master Monk


Promote KAZIN to class Wizard

Promote KAZIN to class Sorcerer


Promote SLADE to class Ninja


Promote KIWI to class Monster


Promote MAY to class Bow Knight


Promote PETER to class Phoenix


Promote GERHALT to class Wolf Baron


Promote LUKE to class Bird Battler


Promote RICK to class Paladin

Promote RICK to class Pegasus Knight


Promote ELRIC to class Sniper

Promote ELRIC to class Brass Gunner


Promote ERIC to class Paladin

Promote ERIC to class Pegasus Knight


Promote RANDOLF to class Gladiator

Promote RANDOLF to class Baron


Promote TYRIN to class Wizard

Promote TYRIN to class Sorcerer


Promote KARNA to class Vicar

Promote KARNA to class Master Monk


Promote JANET to class Sniper

Promote JANET to class Brass Gunner

Mithril (Complete):
~~~~~~~~~~~

Mithril 1 of 15


Mithril 2 of 15


Mithril 3 of 15


Mithril 4 of 15


Mithril 5 of 15


Mithril 6 of 15


Mithril 7 of 15


Mithril 8 of 15


Mithril 9 of 15


Mithril 10 of 15


Mithril 11 of 15


Mithril 12 of 15


Mithril 13 of 15


Mithril 14 of 15


Mithril 15 of 15


Obtain all mithril in one playthrough

Leaderboard:
~~~~~~~~
Fairy Woods Hidden Battle
Compete for the fastest time in the Fairy Woods Challenge!

Other Possibilities:
~~~~~~~~~~~
What, didn't land that promotion?
Clear the game without ever having promoted a unit

So Shiny, it Gleams!
Recruit all characters into your Force

cirellio
Posted: 02 Sep, 2013 17:32
Apparently Super is the hardest difficulty level. Ouch! isn't much more difficult than Normal or Hard (The AI is just a little bit more aggressive). But Super is a whole 'nother story - enemies have ~25% boost to attack and is widely considered the hardest difficulty.

Scott
Posted: 02 Sep, 2013 23:52
It is weird how the value in memory is 0, 1, 3, 2 when you change the difficulty... maybe they got put in the wrong order?

cirellio
Posted: 03 Sep, 2013 01:21
It is indeed weird.
Seems like they flip-flopped 01 (Super) and 02 (Hard).
I'm thinking Ouch! not being more difficult than Super is a game glitch. The AI in Ouch! was supposed to make things more difficult ... but in execution, Super is hardest.

cirellio
Posted: 11 Sep, 2013 19:26
Commentary!

Unique Weapons:
Getting towards the end of the game (I think?), and I'm realizing just how many more achievements could be done here, especially in light of finding how hard it is to get all 15 unique weapons forged from Mithril. Getting the best weapons requires a bit of lucksacking. But that would be a double-reward since I'm already granting achievements for finding the hidden forge let alone collecting all the Mithril. Speaking of which...

All the Mithril:
I'm still planning on having a 'You got all the Mithril'-style achievement, for a 5 point bonus. The reason every piece of Mithril has an achievement associated with it is because it's so easy to miss just one piece of Mithril, and this is a great way for you to know exactly what piece that is. Mithril is so well-hidden that it's almost impossible to find them all without gluing yourself to a walkthrough; This should allow players to comfortably play without having to rely on one.

Promoting at level 40 (instead of early 20's-30):
Some people swear by it, others think it's boring as hell. I don't want to dictate how you play and I certainly don't want to make the game less fun by forcing this.

Why so many Promotion achievements?:
I want to encourage people who have never tried, say, Janet as a Brass Gunner, to give it a go. And in general this is just a good way to show players which characters they've never played in a given role, providing great incentive for replay. Even with lots of savestate abuse, there's a limited amount of special promotion items in the game--and some of them arrive very late--so it's difficult to get all the character promotions in a single playthrough.

Fairy Woods Hidden Battle:
The Fairy Woods challenge could easily become a leaderboard instead of an achievement.

"Your save is corrupt," said the Witch:
This game is unique in that there's an actual dedicated script and eerie music that plays if you manage to corrupt your save file. It was scary to get this message back in the day, especially given the length of this game. (I should know; Got it a few times myself which is probably why I never beat the game.) --- At first, I thought it would be an interesting achievement to have. It would require you to open your savefile and mess around with the information, or create a 0KB savefile, or do any of several other methods, but that would be a bit much to ask of the player, I think.

Chirrup Sandals:
This item is easy to miss and is so unique to the game, the sandals deserve a cheevo all their own. I will add *something* in my second playthrough as I test everything. And yes, I will be doing my second playthrough on the feared 'Super' difficulty mode.

Other than that...:
I've been trying to vary things up, sometimes requiring certain difficulty levels or 'no casualties' or 'no mp use' during certain battles in order to win achievements. I hope that adds a lot to the enjoyment of this game. 'No casualties' is a personal favorite of mine. There are certain battles that get your blood pumping as it is; 'No casualties' turns up the heat that much more.

I've also thought about things like letting Sheela get the last blow against the Red Baron, and have tried adding various interesting extra achievements here and there, which I hope you guys appreciate.

As usual, feedback is welcome.

Scott
Posted: 11 Sep, 2013 22:24
You convinced me the opposite way with your argument for mithral achievements - I was slightly against them until you suggested that it rids the player of needing a walkthrough to chart their progress, now I'm all for them!

I think this is a fantastic, well-thought out write up that shows dedication and consideration, you really know what you're talking about! No casualties is a very interesting one, I love anything that encourages you to play the game differently - if you have to keep someone alive for a certain battle, you would definitely be encouraged to take things a little more carefully: not sacrificing anyone, focusing on your healing and medical herbs for example :)

I completely agree with the 'save is corrupt' thing, and yes, I got the spine chills when I first saw that message, especially because of the music they use, and the way the witch is looking at you, it spooked the hell out of me!! I agree with you for not going for it, mainly because I'd like to be able to port RA onto 'closed' or 'UI friendly' platforms, for example Android or Ouya. On these platforms I wouldn't like players to (have to) be messing around with savefiles, it's counter-enjoyable in my opinion, so I agree with you there.

I never knew about the Chirrup Sandals at the time when I was playing through in my youth, and I thought I knew everything about the game! No MP use might be hard to track, but I applaud you if you can do it! (I guess, resetif mem<deltamem on *all* MP values? Sounds painful but doable...)

Following on from the 'having all the mithral' achievement lines up similarly with 'doing all the promotions' and 'crafting all the special weapons'... it's definitely an interesting problem as we approach a bit of an achievement cap of sorts, and I'm not sure what the best way to solve it is. As the master of this game, I'd suggest that you Cirellio are the judge of which achievements are the most important. If you feel some achievements might be better off in unofficial instead, just let me know, I'll add a function so you can do this.

Sheela against the Red Baron I've always made sure of - and how's about BOWIE making the killing blow on Zeus ('Judgement')? Or Slade ('Repentance')?

Oh and yes definitely, Fairy Woods needs to be a leaderboard lol I can help with that when the time comes :)

cirellio
Posted: 11 Sep, 2013 23:02
Well, I'm glad I took some time explaining some of my decisions then. Thanks for reading that giant wall of text.

"No MP use might be hard to track, but I applaud you if you can do it! (I guess, resetif mem<deltamem on *all* MP values? Sounds painful but doable...)"
Yep, that's exactly what I did!

"I never knew about the Chirrup Sandals at the time when I was playing through in my youth"
Me neither, and I even missed them on this playthrough.

"If you feel some achievements might be better off in unofficial instead, just let me know, I'll add a function so you can do this."
Yes, this would come in handy. Chrono Trigger was very easy to plan out 400 points for because I know the game like the back of my hand. With this game it was impossible to plan out effectively as I wasn't entirely sure how long the game was (and I've never beaten it). That said, I could definitely move the Recruit achievements to unofficial, particularly the mandatory ones. It is a bit redundant when you consider the promotion achievements require you to have the characters anyway.
I did go to a lot of trouble Photoshopping all of the character portraits to improve color saturation and smoothing out pixellation, I would hate for all that work to go to waste (so I'd move those portraits over to the promotion achievements instead).

"Sheela against the Red Baron I've always made sure of - and how's about BOWIE making the killing blow on Zeus ('Judgement')? Or Slade ('Repentance')? "
Great ideas! I will need to value hunt for this line of achievements but it will be worth it.

cirellio
Posted: 26 Sep, 2013 04:12
The Shining Force II achievement list is now complete!
retroachievements.org/Game/75

Sure, it may be completely out of order, and some of the pictures may be wrong. And many of the achievements may indeed need more testing, but they're all there, dangit! (And all of this will be fixed soon enough, including rounding off the number of points to 400.)

I could use some help playtesting these - especially given the length of the game and that no two playthroughs are ever the same.

jackolantern
Posted: 26 Sep, 2013 12:43
Thought I would give this game another go (tried years ago but always got distracted)

got at the start of the game when the rat character (*edit - Slade the Thief) finds some hidden stairs

cirellio
Posted: 26 Sep, 2013 14:01
Thanks!
Also these three...
(not all Mitrhil has been accounted for yet)
(wrong picture, not working at all)
(also not working at all)
...won't be working yet.

During this playthrough I will also be hunting for the hidden fairy battle values - I didn't even find the battle in my last playthrough, had to look it up in a FAQ and saw that I had already missed it :(

jackolantern
Posted: 26 Sep, 2013 14:36
What ROm were you using? I played on the U ROM. If the achievement is in the school this didn't activate for me either.
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