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Final Fantasy VI Advance

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SocializingMogo
Posted: 12 Jul, 2019 10:29
Last Edit: 12 Jul, 2019 10:30
> 3. Cheevos for finding every treasure chest in each area and acquiring secret chest items when not opening the treasure in the first opportunity.

This is almost Naughty Dog level of busywork. Achievements should obviously be encouraging to do more with your characters, explore the world etc. Things like "open every treasure chest" mostly ends up like having a checklist for each region just so you don't miss anything and is always discouraging for me.
Not sure if I'm alone with this though. What does everyone else think?

Braek
Posted: 12 Jul, 2019 10:56
Last Edit: 12 Jul, 2019 12:49
Since you're saying that it is still open for debate, I'd like to give my opinion for your idea number 6, to "correctly" level up your characters with the correct espers to reach high stats.

While completing all content, secret content, and seeing all easter eggs is part of the game and is understandable to make achievements from those, I believe forcing players to play the game a certain way is not a good thing to do, especially with how different you can build your characters (IF the player is even INTERESTED to min-max his characters and not just equip whatever esper they want to get specific magic).

If mean, what if you're making an achievement for making Sabin's strenght as high as possible, and some players would rather have a magic based Sabin for his magic blitz? Same thing with Gau and Gogo. Reminds me of the FF1 NES set where it requires you to have a fighter-monk-Bmage-Wmage and no thief/RedMage, which is wasted potential

Also this could lead players to having to do a low level run until they got the appropriate espers which would be annoying. You could have a low level game achievement, like in the snes set, which is to finish the game under level 30, which is not too easy, not too hard, which is very nice.

If you still decide to have a "high stat" achievement, I would suggest it not being too much min-maxing to keep the set enjoyable. I wouldn't mind not using the trick I used in the snes version (solo level 99 Celes into game over into re-recruiting everyone set at level 99), but I WOULD mind having to monitor the experience level of all my characters after each battle, re-equipping the right espers in consequence, and having my characters not level up at the same time.

However, If the stat you are asking us to reach isn't too high (min-max high), then sure why not.

In general, most achievements that are in the snes set are good enough to stay if you're looking for ideas, though maybe some odd ones could be missing here and that wouldn't be a huge impact, like, say, the superball spam achievement, or finish the game with all 3 fish in inventory.

But now that I'm thinking about it, I wouldn't mind if you could NOT include the relm's dream achievement. While It is part of the story, it just force the player to let "that character I'm not spoiling" die in the floating continent, then progress until rescuing Relm, and then reloading your floating continent save because you don't really want to let a party member die forever.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I'll still add that I wouldn't mind if the ancient cave was part of the main set, since it's still quite different than lufia 2's cave.

Anyway thanks for your work as a developper and keep up the good work.

(Obligatory sorry if that was bad english)

Euclide
Posted: 12 Jul, 2019 11:47
Last Edit: 12 Jul, 2019 12:02
IMO fast forward should *never* be a justification to design excessively grindy achievements. Some people like to play games the way they are intended and core sets should respect that; use bonus sets for that kind of stuff. I have no idea how maxing levels and stats is a "core" idea of the series, is it even acknowledged in-game?

"Not sure if I'm alone with this though. What does everyone else think?"
I am not sure how difficult it is to find all chests by playing normally. Assuming there are no (or few) hidden ones I think it is fine. The part that seems questionable is having to know in advance what chests should be opened and what chests should remain unopened for later. That said I don't have a very strong opinion on it.

The rest seems good to me.

BenGhazi
Posted: 12 Jul, 2019 12:05

6. Cheevos for character completion such as reaching level 99, acquiring every spell and skill and reaching high stats for specific attributes such as Strenght, Magic and HP (standards reached by correctly leveling the characters with stat efficient espers). (This part is still open to debate, as it can be quite grindy, altought I really believe fast foward will minimize this aspect that is, in fact, a core idea in the series).

This one breaks our Developer's Code of Conduct. I suggest splitting this into two parts, part 1 will be doing a low level challenge to avoid wasting stat boosts until the end of the game which shows that the player has the knowledge of the game mechanics and the skill to pull off the min-maxing without the brainless grinding and then part 2 is correctly grinding with the proper espers which can go in a bonus set.

Once the player is finished with the low level game they can transfer their save to the bonus set once it comes out and do the 2nd part of obtaining maximum stats.

televandalist
Posted: 12 Jul, 2019 17:01
It is grindy, but I don't remember it being that grindy

MrGauss
Posted: 12 Jul, 2019 19:21
Last Edit: 12 Jul, 2019 19:40
Hello again, friends!

Just... whow! Not expected to see so many coments in this meantime.

As I was saying, nothing I proposed is set on stone, so we can change that and I can already see I may have had some wrong ideas. As we already have a Final Fantasy III set for the SNES, I was thinking into making a more complete experience over this one. If not, we could have two similar sets.

I will try to address everyone in the following lines:

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@:

I can understand your feelings but we must take in consideration some aspects of the game developer's ideas when creating a set. The codes keep track of all the treasures you encountered and many exclusive items will be only avaliable through hidden chests. So, it is clear to me that, for a FF6 mastery, one should have encountered every single one there is to encounter.

This is not so daunting as it seems. I've done it a couple of times and can guarantee everyone can do it if they put some dedication and patience. A per area cheevo for area chests would also serve for an alert to the gamer to see if they have found everything in the given area.
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Braek, I thank you very much for your opinions! I'll try to list every one of your concerns

- Cheevos in the (6) will have big changes, I promise. I won't create the stat boosting cheevos anymore. It was an wrong idea from the start. A set shouldn't be allowed to subtract so much from the player experience. I completly agree with you, my friend and I will be proposing the removal of the specific characters of the FF1 NES set in the coming days (I also was bothered by it).

- Regarding the "odd" SNES cheevos counterpart, I must say to you I'm not a big fan of them. For an RPG, I like a well defined set that will result in a most complete file possible and will avoid, as much as possible, any obligations of second playthroughts.

- About the Ancient Cave: it will be part of the main set, you can rest assured by that. The Lufia 2 cave is the only exception I can think of in an 16-bit RPG as an in game content that really deserves a Bonus Set. However, this will have to be decided in the most democratic way possible at the end of the summer vocation as I will propose a votation so we might decide what to do with the Lufia 2 Bonus Set.

- Regarding Relm's Dream... I think the best solution here would be to create a single cheevo rewarded when you save Shadow OR when you see the dream. That way you get it regardless of the coices you make and is can function as a friendly reminder that there is an optional cutscene if you would like to see (altough I would never let him die). ******************************************************************************

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Hi, Euclide. Nice to see you here.

I completly agree with you when you state that "fast foward" shouldn't be an justification for design. I was with the idea this set should push the player to a more perfect file as it is the second set of the same game, but I already saw my error on that regard and completly removed out this part on the original plans.

Regarding the chests, most of the dungeons of FF6 are not revisitable, so a reminder you've got everything there is to find before advancing is a very neat one in my opinion. I really hate to know I lost a chest on a one visit only dungeon.

It is true, altough, that you must know in advance what chests you should open and what ones you would better wait until the second part of the game to open. I also didn't like this mechanic of the game but is really a big deal as some rare items can only be obtained this way. Less than 5% of the chests have this kind of behaviour and I will only create cheevos for the most important ones (that should be one or two).

It will be a nice reminder for the players that this mechanic exists as the said chest will be cited on the description on the cheevo. I will also provide a checklist for all the chests containing the ones that should be avoided here

Unfortunately, this is part of the FF experience as the games are full of missables and such. The best I can do is create clear reminders in the road to completion in the form of cheevos XD.

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@

Hello, Ben! Sorry for the fuss, I will remove those ideas from the set, you can rest assured by that.

Altough I really like the challenges imposed by a low level game on the first half of FF6 for the grinding once you're on the Floating Continent, I don't like the idea of a Bonus Set for that as the player would loss the access to the normal set cheevos in the first half of the game.
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Hello, man!

I really don't feel it's that grindy as the game gives you optimal sources of experience to grind to level 99 in the late game... but that is for me. I really want this set to be enjoyable to the fans of the game and reducing the lv 99 chevos to the 50 standards won't be a problem XD.

Hope you enjoy it too.
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MrGauss
Posted: 12 Jul, 2019 19:32
Most important of it all...

The original set has cheevos for the Gau's Rages. What do you people think of them? I honestly don't like the idea of making the player get all of them (it is the most grindy aspect of the entire game).

Topic (6) will be edited from this:

6 OLD. Cheevos for character completion such as reaching level 99, acquiring every spell and skill and reaching high stats for specific attributes such as Strenght, Magic and HP (standards reached by correctly leveling the characters with stat efficient espers). (This part is still open to debate, as it can be quite grindy, altought I really believe fast foward will minimize this aspect that is, in fact, a core idea in the series).

to this:

6 NEW. Cheevos for character progression such as reaching level 50, acquiring key spells and learning all specific skills (Gau's Rages will be up to debate).


Overlord
Posted: 12 Jul, 2019 19:37
Great to see someone finally working on FFVI. It's so odd seeing all the other games have a set but this one. Anyway, I really don't like missable achievements. If a game is very short, then it probably makes sense to have a few. But in a long game like FFVI I don't think it's a good idea to have anything that can be missed. I don't want to have to restart the game after 40 hours because I didn't realize I missed an obscure chest somewhere.

MrGauss
Posted: 12 Jul, 2019 19:48
Hello, Overlord! Thanks for your opinion.

Believe me, I also don't like them XD.

But try to see it this way: a set have to reflect the main game. If there are some important content that can be missed, it should be reflected in the set. Missable content is a key aspect on almost every Final Fantasy game.

What I can do, as a developer, to better guide the players toward not missing the stuff is making a list of missable cheevos and recomendations to not miss them.

All the missable cheevos will be marked with "[m]", there will be a list on the main topic with every one of them and there will also be a express list of things to do to not miss them.

Braek
Posted: 12 Jul, 2019 20:12
Last Edit: 12 Jul, 2019 20:15
Concerning missable achievement, it must be pretty hard to make up a list of only non-missable achievements for FF6 with all the areas (and basically the whole world) that can only be visited once, so I have a hard time seeing Overlord's request becoming true.

That said, it is possible to have missable achievements and still help players to not miss them.

The first solution is an easy one from my point of view though could be more problematic when creating the set as a developper : Have the achievements in order ( or most logical order). This alone could be enough so that the players don't miss them, and even if they do, FF6 has 3 save slots you can cycle through just in case you screw up somewhere, but I have also heard that save slot number 3 can be faulty at times, so maybe cycling though the first two ones might be better.

Second, having a small guide on this very topic describing in order the missable achievements. There is a good exemple of this in Dragon Quest V 's topic, and frankly, as a badge hunter, it just makes me want to start playing DQ5 since it's pretty clear what you have to look out for. (EDIT : saw that MrGauss answered that part in his latest message only after I wrote that)

As for Gau's rages, learning all of them in the SNES version was the first time I did it and I must say I'm quite proud of it, even though it is indeed annoying to do. You have to basically follow a guide showing all the monsters (and monster formations to make it slightly easier) everytime you enter a new area. Following a guide is not "too" annoying to do, and following another guide for strago's blue magic is a much smaller, but similar experience anyway.

The annoying part is of course to actually learn all of those rages, especially when there is just a few monsters left which probably are not in a proper "sets of monsters that are used in the veldt". All that with the fear that you may have missed one during your journey. This part is basically fast forward + A button spam.

I wouldn't be mad if that achievement was reduced to something like "learn 50% or 75% of Gau's rages" so that it would still make players a little bit invested in Gau and the veldt mechanic.

Hope that helps

Euclide
Posted: 12 Jul, 2019 20:20
"It is true, altough, that you must know in advance what chests you should open and what ones you would better wait until the second part of the game to open. I also didn't like this mechanic of the game but is really a big deal as some rare items can only be obtained this way. Less than 5% of the chests have this kind of behaviour and I will only create cheevos for the most important ones (that should be one or two)."
Seems fine to me in that case.

jeftah
Posted: 13 Jul, 2019 03:42
Last Edit: 13 Jul, 2019 18:10
Hello! Just wanted yo chime in with a suggestion, would it be completely off the wall to play through the game using an NMG (Natural Magic Game) ruleset? The last time I played FF6 Adv I finished all of the content like this and had a blast. It's was fun relying on each character's unique abilities to make it through content, and not turning everyone into Ultima machine guns. Here is a link to the ruleset: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/snes/554041-final-fantasy-iii/faqs/28939

Edit: I mean making an achievement for finishing the game without characters except Terra and Celes ever learning magic.

Overlord
Posted: 13 Jul, 2019 14:44
Yeah, I definitely understand. And I agree that a set should reflect the game, but ultimately it would be very tedious to play through such a long game multiple times simply because you didn't know something was there, or that it would disappear at some point. Personally, I don't like following guides, but a list/mark of what is missable would definitely help. Hopefully it'll all work out well.

LockDown2341
Posted: 14 Jul, 2019 14:06
First off, no natural magic rule set achievement. I know some people like to torture themselves with absurd challenges but do it on your own. No need for it to be part of the set.

Second, let's skip Gaus Rages. Or at least make it so you only need to acquire, say, 50% of them? A majority of them are useless anyway and they're a pain in the ass to get.

Lastly are you putting in any achievements for the Dragons Den or Soul Shrine?

Overlord
Posted: 14 Jul, 2019 19:50
I would be very disappointed if there was nothing for the Soul Shrine or Dragons' Den, especially if there's a lot of missable achievements in their place. Those were the big additions to the game.
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